Posts Tagged ‘Charlotte Mason’

Book Review: The Tech-Wise Family

Dear Reader,

This book is a bit of a departure for me but believe it or not I am going to manage to make this be about education too. First a mild disclaimer: I have met the author and his wife though they would not remember, I was a grad student at Harvard when they worked with the undergrad Christian fellowship so our paths did cross.

So it is with pleasure that I recommend The Tech-Wise Family: Everyday Steps for Putting Technology in Its Proper Place by Andy Crouch (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 2017). Crouch takes what I found to be a very balanced approach to how to manage technology in your home. There are strict limits but technology is not the enemy and he is honest about where his own family fell short. This is definitely a good book to read as early in your parenting career as you can, but even if your kids are older it is worth a read, though it may be harder to implement.

I am not going to give you a lot of the meat of the book; you can read it for that. I would like to focus in on just a couple of ideas that really struck me.

First a Charlotte Mason connection:

“An increasing body of psychological research suggests that our supply of willpower – the ability to make hard decisions that go against our instincts or preferences- is limited. Nudges help us make some of those right decisions without having to use up that precious limited supply of willpower, leaving it available for the moments when we really need it.” (Kindle loc. 268)

This is exactly Charlotte Mason’s idea of the Way of the Will and Habit Training. We use the term will in some very contradictory ways today but Charlotte spoke of it as exactly this– the ability to make ourselves do what we don’t want to do. Habit training forms in us good habits, like rutted roads in the soul, that keep us in good paths without too much thought. These “nudges,” as Crouch tells us (Kindle loc. 289), are not in themselves good character but to the extent that they keep is from having to think about every little decision, they aid us in doing the right thing. (Of course, bad habits to just the opposite.)

Misunderstanding the relationship between the body and soul has led to a host of heresies. Crouch rightly tells us that there was no real division in Hebrew thought. What was interesting to me in light of our present discussion is how he ties this idea to education:

“But the further we explore into the astonishingly complex nature of human beings, especially the mysterious organ called the ‘brain’ and the even more mysterious reality of personhood called the ‘mind,’ the more the Hebrew perspective seems fundamentally sound. And nowhere is it more evident that we are body and soul together than in studies of how we learn.

“The best and richest experiences of learning, it turns out, are embodied ones.” (Kindle loc. 1157)

Crouch goes on to talk about how we learn language by physically speaking it – by moving our tongues – and how we learn more when we read physical books and when we use a pencil to take notes. I know I always found this to be true — I remembered what I took notes on in class without needing to ever look back at those notes; the process of writing the information incised it in my brain (oh, that I had that young brain now!).

“We can have a faint idea or hunch in our mind, but it is only when we speak or write it that it becomes clear, not just to others but to ourselves as well.” (Kindle loc. 1179)

This is why Charlotte Mason, in her approach to education, had students narrate everything they read, first orally and then as they were able in writing. Narration is not for the teacher to evaluate but enables the student to cement what they have read in their brains.

And one last thought on education:

“The last thing you need when you are learning, at any age but especially in childhood, is to have things made too easy. Difficulty and resistance as long as they are age appropriate and not too discouraging, are actually what press our brains and bodies to adapt and learn.” (Kindle loc. 1189)

As out muscles are not built with physical resistance, without ever pushing them slightly beyond what they have done before, so our intellect is not built without some struggle.

In all honesty, I feel like there are a lot of books on Christian parenting and technology and I was not expecting too much of this one. I was pleasantly surprised. Though not all of Crouch’s suggestions are unique, he doe shave some good insights and writes in a very enjoyable way. The true treasure in my eyes is the nuggets of thought in there on other topics (like education). But either way The Tech-Wise Family is a book well worth reading.





Book Review: The Christian Home School

Dear Reader,

Thank you all for continuing to give book suggestions. My latest read has been Gregg Harris’ The Christian Home School (Gresham, OR: Noble Publishing Associates, 1995; originally published 1988).

Harris’ book is a bit dated (can one still realistically homeschool for $100-200 per child per year??) and I found its scope too narrow, particularly in talking about how to homeschool, but there enough good material here to make it worth perusing.  As my source indicated, there is one stellar chapter here, chapter 5: “The Biblical Basis of Education.” If you are new to homeschooling and need encouragement and the very basics of how to begin, you might appreciate the rest of the book; otherwise you can probably just skim large chunks (as I confess I did).

The Christian Home School begins with a lot of the usual scary stories about public schools. I don’t doubt the truth of these stories; there no doubt is something indeed to be afraid of. But I’m not a big fan of this approach. Harris also includes a brief history of public schooling in the United States and shows why reforming the current system is not an option.

Harris then turns his attention to Christian schools. For me as a homeschooler, this was refreshing; all the other books I have read thus far have been pro-Christina school and not even mentioned homeschooling as an option so it was nice to hear arguments for homeschooling in particular. Nevertheless, while I agree with a lot of what Harris says, both anti-Christian school and pro-homeschooling, I don’t think he is as fair and well-rounded as he could be. Let’s just say there are pros and cons in any option.

Having established the case for homeschooling, Harris then gets to the meat: the role of the Bible. Though he appears to be a fairly conservative writer, Harris’ stance is not overly fundamentalist. The Bible, he says, “isn’t intended to be a textbook for teachers and school administrators . . .But it does tell us everything we need to know to evaluate education – to tell the basic difference between good education and bad” (p. 66).

Parents are the primary educators (p. 66). This point is easily established. Harris makes the case that as our parenting is compared to God’s that we will be better parents the more we emulate God and adopt His style. While the Bible may not give us many specific instructions in how to parent, there is much we can learn from examining how God parents and educates us (p. 67). [1]

Harris finds the purpose of education in the purpose of man (p. 70). He goes on to say: “It only stands to reason, then, that one of the primary purposes of education is to prepare people to be born again and then to worship and fellowship with God” (p. 70) and again: “Thus, education is to benefit our society and the Church by equipping us to fulfill our part and take our place in the community of faith” (pp. 70-1). I agree with him in much of this — the purpose of education is found in God’s overall plan for man; and the primary purpose is for the individual but the larger society also benefits. I have a slight quibble with his phraseology, however. Harris speaks of “preparing” and “equipping” as if children are not yet a full part of the Church. I have argued here that there is no real divide between children and adults in the covenant community. Children are fully part of that community, are able to contribute to it, and are already interwoven into God’s plan (see this post, this one, and this one).

When it comes to the how of education, Harris tries to keep an open mind, allowing for various methods of education [though not unschooling (p. 88), a conclusion I agree with], but he clearly has a favorite. His own preference is for what he calls “Delight-Directed Study” which he equates with Unit Studies. Very briefly when we began homeschooling, we tried unit studies. I have some problems with the idea of unit studies (see this post or this one) though Harris’ arguments make me more amenable to his approach that I would have thought I would be. Part of the issue is that Harris shows no awareness of a living books approach to homeschooling such as Charlotte Mason advocates. I suspect this is because his book is older and the Charlotte Mason resurgence in homeschooling circles had not occurred, or at least not developed so much steam.  [More than any other approach we have followed the Charlotte Mason method in our homeschool. While I have become less enamored of her philosophy in recent years (and this series is the result of that disillusionment), hers is still the best single approach I have found.]

In reality there is much that Harris says that would fit well with Charlotte Mason’s philosophy. He argues that children have an innate, God-ordained appetite for knowledge (p. 69) and advocates a broad liberal arts education (p. 71). In fact, his language is very much like Miss Mason’s when he argues for a balanced intellectual meal that will bring pleasure to the child (pp. 101-02). They also both say that education cannot and should not be accomplished through force or discipline and that the role of the parent/teacher is largely to prepare the feast (Charlotte’s image) and to wait for the child to respond, as flower bud opens (Harris’ image, p. 111). 

Harris is a bit more in the classical mode in that he sees stages on education, those his are not strictly defined (pp. 112-17). This should not surprise us given the emphasis he places on education as preparation (as I argued in this post).

Delight-directed studies, as Harris defines them, teach multiple subjects through whatever topic the child is interested in. That is, if a child has a particular interest in cats, he might do language arts by reading and writing about cats and learn math by starting a cat sitting business. This were he is most like Unit Studies and least like Charlotte Mason. Though I think in the end, there is more similarity here than I thought; Charlotte’s approach also teaches some subjects, like grammar and writing, indirectly through readings and narrations done on history or other topics.

Harris advocates delight-directed study not just because it works but because, he says, it is biblical. This is perhaps his best and most unique argument — that God intended us to have pleasure even in the things we need, from food to procreation, and that we should also find delight as we satisfy our intellectual appetites (pp. 96ff). For evidence of this he points to the Psalmist’s pleasure in his study of the law of God (Ps. 1:2 among others).

One final quibble — I am once again (as I was with Rushdoony) uncomfortable when Harris talks about education for boys versus that of girls (pp. 119-20). He argues that high school age boys should be educated for a specific career but that girls should be given a broad education so that they will be prepared to help their husbands in whatever their calling might be.  My problem with this kind of thinking is two-fold: It ignores the very real possibility that not every Christian will get married. In fact, the Scriptures tell us that it is better not to be married (1 Cor. 7:32ff) and  perhaps we would take this injunction more seriously if we didn’t start our kids off with marriage as the be-all and end-all of Christian life. Secondly, it tends to undervalue knowledge for its own sake. Harris does not go as far as Rushdoony in this but perhaps just teeters in the edge of the idea.

The bottom line is that Gregg Harris’ The Christian Home School is not a book you necessarily need to run out and get right away but there is one solid good idea in here which I think we need to add to our discussion of a reformed Christian approach to education.


[1] As a side note, I don’t agree with Harris’ definition of “to train up” in Proverbs 22:6 as “to touch the palate” (p. 68).  I have no idea where he got this. You can see my own interpretation of that verse here.


Living Books on Ancient Rome

Dear Reader,

We wrapped up the school year by reading about ancient Rome. Each child (2 middle schoolers and 2 high schoolers) read a historical account and a book of historical fiction. We read some myth, science and art together and also Shakespeare’s Julius Caesar. You can find all my lists of living books here.

Living Books on Ancient Rome


The Roman Way by Edith Hamilton — My 11th grader read this book and the similar one on Greece. Hamilton talks more about culture than history and shows the impact ad influence of the Romans.

The Roman Empire Assimov — My senior enjoys Assimov’s histories.  He is not Christian so I would take the bits that touch on Christianity with a grain of salt. He also has one on the Roman republic.

The Story of the Romans by Eva Marie Tappan — I prefer Tappan to the all-popular Guerber. My 7th grader read this one.

The Book of the Ancient Romans by Dorothy Mills — I didn’t like her book on the ancient near east but her volumes on Greece and roe are more meaty. My 8th grader read this one.

Historical Fiction:

Quo Vadis by Henryk Sinkiwicz — One of three long fictional books that were read in the house. This one is set after the time of Christ. My 11th grader read it and seemed okay with it.

Ben Hur by Lew Wallace– A classic. I had my 12th grader read it.

The Robe by Lloyd Douglas — I assigned this one  to myself, and honestly couldn’t get through it all. The writing is okay, though not stellar. At time sit was engaging. But it is set at the very end and just after Christ’s time and says a lot about Him and His disciples and I found that it plays with the biblical story too much.

Bronze Bow by Elizabeth George Speare — My 7th grader read this book by a well-known author of historical fiction.

Tiger Tiger by Lynne Reid Banks — Historical fiction from the author of the Indian in the Cupboard.

White Isle by Caroline Dale Snedeker — I had heard about Snedeker in homeschooling circles but we had never sued one of her books. I had my 8th grader read this one. It is set in Roman Britain.

Other Subjects:

Aeneid for Boys and Girls by Alfred Church — Having just tacked the full Odyssey I didn’t want to read the original book but Church’s retelling is fun and exciting.

Child’s History of Art by V.M. Hillyer — We read the sections on Rome from all three books within a book: painting, sculpture and architecture. This is elementary level but one can still get quite a bit out of it.

Science in Ancient Rome  by Jacqueline Harris — Also elementary level.

Happy reading!


Hebraic Versus Hellenistic Education

Dear Reader,

For a change of pace I have not a book but a video review. I recently finished watching Art Middlekauff’s talk “Charlotte Mason and the Educational Tradition” at Charlotte Mason Poetry (Feb. 6, 2018). Let me start by saying that this is an excellent lecture and I highly recommend listening to the whole thing. I am going to summarize some of what Middlekauff said so you can understand what follows but I am by no means presenting all his content. My main purpose today is not to recap what he has said but to discuss one or two points about the traditions themselves.

First, a matter of terminology — Middlekauff speaks of two ancient approaches to education which he terms the Syriac and the Hellenic. I am using the word Hebraic for Syriac. This may be my idiosyncrasy, but I studied the Syriac language, which is a later form of Aramaic, in grad school (and even almost wrote a dissertation on Syriac interpretation) and to me it seems a misnomer for something that dates back to Old Testament times. Semitic would be a better term if we mean to refer to the educational traditions of the Ancient Near East (as it is called; today the same area is the Middle East) but Hebraic seems even better as it is really the traditions of God’s people, the Hebrews, that we are speaking of.

Middlekauff begins by showing that there were two ancient educational traditions, not just the classical, Greek model but also the Hebraic one, and that these two were different in some very fundamental ways. Showing these differences takes a good chunk of the lecture, and then he moves on to what is really the main point he is arguing, that Charlotte Mason looks back to not the Hellenic but the Hebraic model.  This is a controversial point in “CM” circles as many would place her within the classical tradition.

In his discussion of the two traditions, Middlekauff shows quite clearly that the classical Greek educational tradition is based on a humanistic foundation, humanistic in that it sees no higher than man and can have no ultimate truth. In contrast, what we need is a tradition like the Hebraic one which sees God as the beginning of all knowledge and the ultimate standard by which all is judged.  Cornelius Van Til (my review of his book on education is here) has made very similar arguments though his book is a bit of a harder slog. If you are a devotee of classical Christian education and have not been convinced by my feeble arguments, listen to what Middlekauff has to say. He does a particularly good job of showing how a virtue-based system of education founded on the classical model is really not Christian.

The second half of Middlekauff’s lecture is about Charlotte Mason’s philosophy of education. His presentation of her ideas is good and my quibble is not primarily with what he has to say but with the ideas themselves. I agree with Middlekauff that Charlotte Mason stands much more in the Hebraic tradition and that she clearly intended to go back and start something new founded upon the gospels and not upon classical sources. I have some issues with what she deems “the gospel principles of education”  which I have discussed in this post.

A point which Middlekauff spends some time on is the view of the child. He shows that in Hellenic education the child was seen as little more than an animal (on the level with women and slaves who were also not valued). In the Hebraic model the child is a gift of God (I have my own post on the child in Scripture here). When discussing the two traditions, Middlekauff also makes the comment that the child was the center of life and festivals in the Hebraic tradition. I am uncomfortable with how this is phrased. To some extent, it is true in that Hebrew festivals, as he says, often called for the father to explain the works of God to his children (though I tend to think that these explanations were almost as much for the adults). I would not go so far as to say that the child was the center of life and I would want to see more biblical support for this assertion.

This might be a minor point if it were not for how Charlotte Mason fits into the picture. I agree with Middlekauff’s assessment that Mason places a very high value on the child. In my opinion it is too high a value. The child according to Charlotte Mason belongs to a higher estate than we do. He sees this as a return to the Hebraic view of the child; I see it as going too far. I am fine with saying that the child is “a born person” (as Charlotte does in her first principle). I am fine with putting him on the same level as his elders in terms of his worth, his ability to know his Creator, his capacity for both faith and sin. But Charlotte, I believe, and I have said before (here, here, and here), goes beyond this and presents something of an idealized child with a capacity for good that is not just intellectual but also moral. This I cannot accept.

My lecture review is this: highly recommended (and I plan to return to a couple of specific points I liked in future posts). I am in complete agreement that we need an approach to education that is not based upon the classical, which is not and cannot be at its root Christian, and that we have at least the beginnings of a better model for us in the Hebraic tradition. But I have moved away from Charlotte Mason’s philosophy specifically because of the idea Middlekauff points out — that Charlotte holds the child to a higher estimate. This I do not believe to be biblical.


Living Books on Ancient Greece

Dear Reader,

A break from the theology– below are the books we have used this year in studying ancient Greece. You can find all my lists of living books here. My kids are all in middle or high school now so while some of these may work for elementary, that is not my focus.

Living Books on Ancient Greece

We are not doing a spine book together this year but some of the extras like art, science, and myth. We continued to use the relevant portions of Hillyer’s A Child’s History of Art. Not too surprisingly, he has quite a bit on Greek art. The volume I have contains all his smaller works on painting, sculpture and architecture. This is an elementary level book but I find it has enough substance to use with my older kids.

I have each of my kids reading some version of the Odyssey (see below) so for our myth together we read Padraic Colum’s The Golden Fleece. This also could be elementary, at least as a read-aloud.  It includes a number of other myths within it as tales told by Orpheus so it covers a lot of ground. I highly recommend this one.


I looked at a couple of books on words that have come into our language from Greek myths. One was Isaac Asimov’s Words from Myths which I was really excited about, based on the author, but was ultimately disappointed in ad it just didn’t seem engaging. It jumped too quickly from one subject to another. A similar book which I happened to have on my shelf as a hand-me-down is By Jove! Brush Up Your Mythology by Michael Macrone. This one is a little better as it offers one section on each word. We read about things like fascination and enthusiasm and how those words came into English and changed their meaning. It was okay but not spectacular.

With my younger two I also read portions of Eva Marie Tappan’s Greece and Rome. This is a compilation of first hand sources. Tappan is a too-often-neglected author I think we would all do well to rediscover, She has some 8 volumes like this with primary sources from different cultures as well as other history books (see below).

Each of my children read a book on Greek history and a version of the Odyssey.

My oldest (12th grade) read Isaac Asimov’s The Greeks: A Great Adventure. He used Asimov on the Egyptians earlier this year. My 11th grader read Edith Hamilton’s The Greek Way which focuses on Greek culture and influence a bit more. There is also a sequel we didn’t have time for, The Echo of Greece. I thought this would be a good fit for her as she is aiming for art school. My 8th grader read The Book of the Ancient Greeks by Dorothy Mills. I found her volume on Egypt and the Ancient Near East too curt for my taste but this one is much meatier. Finally, my 7th grader read Eva Marie Tappan’s Story of the Greek People. I much prefer Tappan’s books to the similar (and very popular) ones by Guerber.  

As I said, we each read a version of the Odyssey. With my two high schoolers, I read the whole thing — Homer’s the Odyssey as translated by Robert Fagles. I had gotten Leland Ryken’s study guide thinking we might need help but we actually found it pretty easy. It is divided up and laid out nicely in usually manageable paragraphs within reasonable chapters. Two or three times a week we just sat together and went around reading a chapter, a paragraph per person. We did not narrate or discuss.

My 8th grader used The Iliad and Odyssey of Homer by Alfred Church. This is,as its title says, both the Iliad and the Odyssey.  My 7th grader read The Adventures of Odysseus and The Tale of Troy by Padraic Colum and Willy Pogany. Both seem good for simpler versions of the tale. Even briefer is Rosemary Sutcliff’s The Wandering of Odysseus which would be good for upper elementary. Another elementary choice would be Mary Pope Osborne’s books of myths.

There are always lots of other good books we don’t have time for. Here are some I looked at:

I’ve liked some of the books in the “very brief introduction” series but decided the one on ancient Greece was too brief and dry for my tastes. Cotrell’s Minoan Civilization was intriguing but I didn’t want to devote that much time to Minoans alone. The Battle of Salamis looks impressive for an older boy who would really get into battle specifics. And finally, Peter Connolly’s books have lovely illustrations. They would be great for giving you things to put in your Book of Centuries. I was sorry to not have time (or extra kids) to use one of them at least.

Still to come this year: Rome!



Articles on Education

Dear Reader,

A couple of recent articles relating to education —

“Teenage Vandals were Sentenced to Read Books, ” by Christine Hauser in The New York Times (April 5, 2018). Books as punishment — what do you think? I like the idea. It seems the kids (or at least the one quoted) got the message through books in a way they never would have in adults just lectured them. Books convey ideas in a form that makes them much more palatable.

“Why You Forget Most of What You Read,” by Julie Beck from The Week (Apr. 13, 2018; republished from The Atlantic) — Honestly, I am just like the person in this article. I forget books. I forget movies. But I do tend to remember by impressions of them — how they made me feel and whether I liked them. I just don’t remember plots. It’s kind of good because I can rewatch movies 😉 Seriously, though, the techniques which we have been using as part of a Charlotte Mason education are just what this article recommends — narrating after reading to aid retention, and reading in smaller chunks over longer periods of time.


Why Not Charlotte Mason?

Dear Reader,

Thus far we have talked about why we need a reformed Christian philosophy of education, why we need a theology of education, how we should decide on such a theology, and what we can learn from public education in the United States today.

This week and next I’d like to look at two popular approaches to education — the Charlotte Mason method and Christian classical education. [Some would argue that Charlotte Mason is a subset of classical; I am not going to get into that debate as it really doesn’t affect what I am discussing.]

Around the time my oldest (who is now a high school senior) was in third grade, I began to explore the Charlotte Mason approach to education. A lot of what I read initially rang true with me and I began more and more to incorporate that philosophy in our homeschool. More recently, however, as I read even more I have found that I cannot wholeheartedly subscribe to Miss Mason’s approach as there are parts of it which just not in line with my (reformed) theology.

I have written a lot about this, a whole series at the end of last year in fact; I will  not rehash it all today. If you want to get up to speed, the key posts are here and here.

First, the positive — what is there in Charlotte Mason’s philosophy of education that appeals to the reformed Christian? Charlotte’s approach has been summed up in 20 principles. The first and last of these (in my opinion) serve as a kind of bookends to her method. They are:

“1. Children are born persons.

20. We allow no separation to grow up between the intellectual and ‘spiritual’ life of children, but teach them that the Divine Spirit has constant access to their spirits, and is their Continual Helper in all the interests, duties and joys of life.”

Simply put, Charlotte recognizes the personhood of the child (see this post for more on what that means) and the role of the Holy Spirit in education (see this one).  These are the ideas which first attracted me to Charlotte’s thought.

Charlotte bases her philosophy on what she calls the divine law — which boils down to special revelation (i.e. the Bible) and general revelation (God’s revelation through creation including what we know through science). In particular she points to what she calls the gospel principles of education. I count this as a positive in that, in contrast to many other approaches to education available to us today, she has a definitively Christian, biblical foundation.

On the negative side, I am not enamored by her interpretation of those passages. I find it plausible but not convincing as I discussed here.

The big negative, however, and the thing that has caused me to abandon Charlotte as my main role model in education and to begin this series, is her second principle which reads:

“2. They are not born either good or bad, but with possibilities for good and for evil.”

I diverge from most of those who write about Charlotte’s ideas in my understanding of this principle. I maintain that she pretty much meant what it sounds like she meant — children have the possibilities for good and evil in them from birth. This is not just a statement about education but about their spiritual state as well. You can see why I believe that in this post.

This conclusion was disturbing enough but more recently, I ran across a quote in her second volume, Parents and Children, which goes even further. There she says:

“But we live in a redeemed world, and one of the meanings which that unfathomable phrase bears is, that it is the duty of those who have the care of childhood to eradicate each vulgar and hateful trait, to plant and foster the fruits of that kingdom in the children who have been delivered from the kingdom of nature into the kingdom of grace; that is to say, all children born into this redeemed world.” (Parents and Children, p. 65; emphasis added)

This seems to say that all children are born into a state of grace. As I contemplated this idea, I realized that it is pretty foundational to her thinking. She assumes that the child can not just learn but can, when presented with the good, choose it. If you want to read more on all that see (again) this post or this one.

The problem for me as a reformed Christian is– if Charlotte in her method assumes that the child is capable of good, even bases her approach on that assumption, and I do not believe this, how can I apply her philosophy? [I do actually have a partial answer to that question –I consider my children covenant children and as such can expect them to be able to choose the good. The problem is that if I were educating other children I might not be able to assume this. I want a philosophy that I can apply to all children.]

My goal is to begin to develop a philosophy which is biblical from the ground up rather than to take an already existing approach and tweak it. Nonetheless, I think we can learn some things from Charlotte’s approach:

  1. I want a philosophy which acknowledges the personhood of the child.
  2. I want to be able to say something about the role of God the Holy Spirit in education.
  3. I want a philosophy that is built from the divine law, as Charlotte is, but with a better understanding of/treatment of Scripture.
  4. I want a philosophy that acknowledges man’s fallen state.
  5. I haven’t covered this yet but Charlotte’s approach is profoundly practical. It tells me as a parent  how to educate. This is not something I have gotten from most articles on reformed education but it is something that we homeschooling parents ultimately need. I don’t expect to get there soon but we need more than exalted theories; we need boots on the ground how do I get my child to read, add, learn history, etc.

Next time: Why not Christian classical?





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